front end slide....recoverable?

can it be done? or do you just pray and ease up on the inputs?

if you can do it you really should be riding in motogp.

Read twist of the wrist II.

I sure as hell aint saying I could do it. I do know at least in my mind that they are recoverable, will I be able to make my body do what my brain wants??

Easy peasy... just bring the front wheel off the ground...

Practice locking the front wheel in a straight line in a safe environment it will at least give you a feel for what a slide may feel like so you are more prepared and not in panic mode

You can slide the front wheel in a controlled manner around corners yes... I've had it happen a few times on the track and you can feel it very distinctly... it's a sign you're pushing a bit too much, or that your tire is too cold... drop a couple of psi in the front tire at the end of the session and you should be fine

ive had it happen whilst breaking and been pretty close to lowsiding, but my dirt biking background has saved me. actually it happens to me all the time. mostly when doing stoppies in the wet and i go over a painted road marker.

i try to avoid it at high speeds, i just jump off the brake quick smart and lean over more if i have to and apply throttle.

Wavex said:

You can slide the front wheel in a controlled manner around corners yes... I've had it happen a few times on the track and you can feel it very distinctly... it's a sign you're pushing a bit too much, or that your tire is too cold... drop a couple of psi in the front tire at the end of the session and you should be fine

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this, Mr. Wavex, is why you are a legend.

Read twist of the wrist II.

Click to expand...

ive gotten 2/3's of the way thru it. front end slides must be in the last third.

I can say they are both very distinctive and recoverable.

I inadvertently slid the front wheel in a corner (90 degree) on the way home from the grocery store. Wasn't going super fast, but tires were cold and there was some loose salt on the road.

Very nearly low sided. Still not sure how I didn't go sliding across the pavement.

It happens very fast. I remember leaning into the corner, the front end sliding, the bike falling, moved my inside foot off the peg, it hit pavement, somehow bike came back up and all was well.
Still have a sore ankle and knee, but considering it another miraculous victory.

Upon inspection in the garage, the front tire has rub marks on that side out to the very edge of the chine.

Savable for sure.

Motocross background helps so much for this type of stuff and teaches your body the muscle memory to react quickly for it.

Haven't done it on the FZ yet, but I do all the time on the dirt bike, manage to save it most of the time!

I can't say that I've ever done anything to actively save it (on a proper street bike), but yes it happens. I've noticed it quote a bit when cranked over after hitting a seam in the pavement (track and street) and to a lesser extent when simply asking too much of my front tire (probably combined with bad technique). I've also locked my front countless times when braking hard (straight line) and have never crashed as a result.

Except for in the dirt or on a dual sport, it's always been over before I could react (the braking in a straight line thing just requires backing off quickly).

now that you have me thinking about it, it has happened to me. I was riding home late one night on my old Honda CX500. I was on the on-ramp to the interstate. The ramp was one of those evil reducing radius turns. I had been on this ramp a thousand times but just wasn't paying attention and was going a bit too fast. I drifted to the outside of the lane and into some sand left over from winter. The front end slid out and I thought I was going down fast. The front end did a quick tank slap and I just kept on the throttle. She came out of it and I rode VERY carefully the whole way home. I didn't seem like I took a breath for a good 10 minutes. When I stood up to get out of bed the next morning I nearly fell over. I looked down and had the nastiest bruise on my right thigh from the handlebar tank slapping. I learned my lesson and knock on wood it hasn't happened on the FZ

I'd say that you can recover from a front end slide but in order to do so you need to understand what usually causes a front end slide and how to react should you encounter one.

So, what are the main causes of sliding the front tire and what are some of the things you can do if you start to feel the front end slide?

Misti

Misti said:

I'd say that you can recover from a front end slide but in order to do so you need to understand what usually causes a front end slide and how to react should you encounter one.

So, what are the main causes of sliding the front tire and what are some of the things you can do if you start to feel the front end slide?

Misti

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Main cause? Overtaxing the traction available to the front tire. Doesn't really matter if that's a straight line skid, or skidding the tire while you're trying to turn.... you consume all the traction there is, and the tire will start to slide.

To regain traction, you must reduce the load on the tire. Slowing will generally decrease the forces acting on the tire, unless you are using that wheel for braking.... engine braking vs. applying the brakes.

Matching wheel speed to available traction makes that a lot less painful. Blipping the throttle on a downshift, whether you have a slipper clutch or not will reduce rear wheel skidding.

Widening the turn, to reduce the lateral load? Standing the bike up?

RJ2112 said:

Main cause? Overtaxing the traction available to the front tire. Doesn't really matter if that's a straight line skid, or skidding the tire while you're trying to turn.... you consume all the traction there is, and the tire will start to slide.

To regain traction, you must reduce the load on the tire. Slowing will generally decrease the forces acting on the tire, unless you are using that wheel for braking.... engine braking vs. applying the brakes.

Matching wheel speed to available traction makes that a lot less painful. Blipping the throttle on a downshift, whether you have a slipper clutch or not will reduce rear wheel skidding.

Widening the turn, to reduce the lateral load? Standing the bike up?

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Sure the main cause is overtaxing the traction available on the front tire but how Many riders don't get what kinds of things can cause the front to lose traction, hence my question. Braking too hard or too forcefully (while straight up and down) or braking too long, too hard or too suddenly while leaned over will do that for sure. This is due to the fact that there is too much weight on the front tire and it therefore loses traction. In those cases getting off the brakes and back onto the throttle (to transfer the weight off the front and onto the back) will help as well as trying to stand the bike up (if you are leaned over). Also, learning how to NOT make those braking errors in the first place is a big help.

There are a few other things (rider error) that can cause the front tire to tuck or suddenly lose traction, thoughts on what those might be?

Cheers!
Misti

Misti said:

Sure the main cause is overtaxing the traction available on the front tire but how Many riders don't get what kinds of things can cause the front to lose traction, hence my question. Braking too hard or too forcefully (while straight up and down) or braking too long, too hard or too suddenly while leaned over will do that for sure. This is due to the fact that there is too much weight on the front tire and it therefore loses traction. In those cases getting off the brakes and back onto the throttle (to transfer the weight off the front and onto the back) will help as well as trying to stand the bike up (if you are leaned over). Also, learning how to NOT make those braking errors in the first place is a big help.

There are a few other things (rider error) that can cause the front tire to tuck or suddenly lose traction, thoughts on what those might be?

Cheers!
Misti

Click to expand...

The biggest one I have personal experience with, is stabbing at the front brakes. Way too easy on any sort of modern bike to grab a fistful and lock the front before weight transfer occurs. I was shocked at how little braking that skidding front gave me. All the way into the ditch. :spank:

Since that time, I've passed through after winter sand patches leaned over at speed, and pushed the front through the sand.... just a momentary loss of traction, and one nod of the bars and no change in direction of travel. I've come to trust that response.

I'd think another way to upset the front is to set the wheel back down out of line with the direction of travel, setting up a tank slapper.

To get back to the operator error part of your question; I'd think having a death grip on the bars is a big part of 'pooching' the suspension/steering's natural self correcting tendencies?

Saved it once on the FZ... Sort of... Going about ten to fifteen around a corner hit a small patch of gravel. Front tire slid out and handlebars went straight. Used the heel of my inside foot to bounce off the ground... Bike righted itself when it caught fresh pavement.

You couldn't shove a greased needle in my butt after that...

It is possible I guess.
I have tried once as I remember.

It was raining and I had went over a blind crest before I saw the red light and the car in front of me.
I braked too hard and the front end skidded.
I released my front brake and the front wheel gained traction again.
Then I dodged the car and got between the lanes then I gradually came to a stop.
Phew...
Now when ever I go over that crest, I slow down.

I hope that helps.

If you mean pushing the front in a corner - I've done it many times on the track but it's always been unintentional mostly being caused by cold tires or rider error i.e. being too late on the throttle and using too much engine braking when I'm already leaned over which in turn is caused by not looking through the turn far enough combined with an overall lack of skill The remedy would be to either stand the bike up a little (which would probably cause you to run wide) OR to get on the throttle very smoothly and transfer the weight to the rear tire.

As for sliding the front due to a tire lock - I've done that once too and I crashed lol. I was coming to a stop at a traffic light in the rain when I still had my FZ, I gave it a little too much brake and before I knew it I was on my ass. I was a total noob tho. I'd like to think that if this happens to me now I'll expect it and I'll know how to react (release the front brake and reapply gradually).

RJ2112 said:

The biggest one I have personal experience with, is stabbing at the front brakes. Way too easy on any sort of modern bike to grab a fistful and lock the front before weight transfer occurs. I was shocked at how little braking that skidding front gave me. All the way into the ditch. :spank:

Since that time, I've passed through after winter sand patches leaned over at speed, and pushed the front through the sand.... just a momentary loss of traction, and one nod of the bars and no change in direction of travel. I've come to trust that response.

I'd think another way to upset the front is to set the wheel back down out of line with the direction of travel, setting up a tank slapper.

To get back to the operator error part of your question; I'd think having a death grip on the bars is a big part of 'pooching' the suspension/steering's natural self correcting tendencies?

Click to expand...

+1 on all of these. You are right that it is fairly easy to lock up the front tire if you grab a fistful of front brake and there is little stopping power available if the front is skidding along the pavement.

You mention that having a death grip on the bars makes this situation worse but also allowing your weight to slam forward into the tank under hard braking upsets the suspension and puts too much weight on the front. One thing we coach our students to do when emergency or hard braking is to squeeze the tank with both knees and make sure that their arms remain bent and relaxed. This should help prevent locking up the front.

What do you do if you do lock up the front tire and find yourself skidding towards something you don't want to hit?

Misti

Mid turn or under braking?

Under braking, I'd go with release which will give traction back and swerve. Mid turn? Well, a slide mid turn usually is just a quick jerk and you'd go on about your business of normal avoidance. Unless you anticipated the loss of traction, usually the bike has already regained traction and re-aligned itself by the time you react. So sayeth Keith Code.

Recurring skips on the front during a turn indicates you're at the edge of traction (or your front wheel is bent), and are most likely racing. Lean yourself over more (if you can), so the bike leans less, then ease off the throttle, smoother than you got on the throttle. That'll make the bike run wide for a bit, continuing to smoothly get off the gas will keep the effect going for a bit.

Really tho, if you're edge of traction, and you need to avoid something... Hope you had your gear on! That's the reason for the rule to only ride at 75%