Engine Power

tuul01 · May 20, 2009

Hi everyone,

I had a quick question that I hope someone out there can answer. I have a 2004 FZ6 and as a birthday present had a trackday bought for me. I now have the bug and have been back a few times since.

The only problem I have is in the straights. The bike is vary capable in the corners but I'm losing out to other 600s on the straight even though the throttle is wide open.

I've already had the bike dyno'ed with a PC III, TBR exhausts and BMC air filter. I achieve 92hp at the rear wheel.

I've heard that it may be possible to change the cam shafts on the engine to the R6 ones to really release the power in the engine but am unsure whether this is such a good idea.

I know people say, 'just get a new bike'... but I love my fazer! Iis there anyway of getting more power out of the engine or is it just not worth it!

Thanks

yamaha rider87 · May 20, 2009

tuul01 said:
Hi everyone,

I had a quick question that I hope someone out there can answer. I have a 2004 FZ6 and as a birthday present had a trackday bought for me. I now have the bug and have been back a few times since.

The only problem I have is in the straights. The bike is vary capable in the corners but I'm losing out to other 600s on the straight even though the throttle is wide open.

I've already had the bike dyno'ed with a PC III, TBR exhausts and BMC air filter. I achieve 92hp at the rear wheel.

I've heard that it may be possible to change the cam shafts on the engine to the R6 ones to really release the power in the engine but am unsure whether this is such a good idea.

I know people say, 'just get a new bike'... but I love my fazer! Iis there anyway of getting more power out of the engine or is it just not worth it!

Thanks

god I hear that all the time on group rides and things and I'm sick of it. My best friend has a CBR600RR and says that like every day. I tell them I love the FZ6 and I'd rather have my modded out FZ6 than a stock R6 or similar but they don't get it. As for more power, idk what to tell you on the camshafts because everything you have is everything I have lol. Good luck though, fight the good fight, and if you do find a way to do the camshaft swap and it works wonders, lemme know!

tuul01 · May 20, 2009

I'm glad you know what I mean about hanging on to what is an amazing bike rather than swapping it for a sports bike! I'll let you know what happens... I'm talking to a few race companies about the cam shafts or possibly swapping in an R6 engine (perhaps!). I'll let you know what happens!

Fred · May 20, 2009

tuul01 said:
I know people say, 'just get a new bike'... but I love my fazer! Iis there anyway of getting more power out of the engine or is it just not worth it!

Downshift!

As a general rule, R6 parts are not bolt-on modifications for the FZ6.

EDIT: I just noticed that you have a PCIII, so you can remap your fueling to work with the cam. Given that, you might be able to accomplish something with the R6 cam. I had thought you were another one of the "I'll bolt on R6 parts and Bob's your uncle" group.

Fred

tuul01 · May 20, 2009

Fred said:
Downshift!

As a general rule, R6 parts are not bolt-on modifications for the FZ6.

Fred

I try to keep the revs quite high when I'm out on track, usually 7K and above but not really above 12K. I think the power band is between 7-10K but I still struggling. For example, I can probably reach around 120mph at a stretch on the short start finish straight at Brands Hatch Circuit (Indy) where as friends with other 600s manage about 145mph.

I know that there's no way I can match this but even another 10 - 15 mph would be great!!

tuningfork · May 20, 2009

are you running the bike naked or with a fairing? at high speeds aerodynamic drag is the biggest obstacle to overcome, pehaps some track bodywork or something to that affect will help you out.

Have you experimented with gearing? There are some simulators out there that can be used to experiment with.

Have you done any experimentation with the PCIII tune? Perhaps the dyno tune does not match up with the track environment (ie temps, load values, airflow at high speeds, etc.) and you are giving up some "real-world" HP.

Maybe try tuning with race fuel and/or ignition mapping?

Did they map each cylinder (power balance test)?

Any mods you can do to the throttle bodies to improve airflow?

Weight reduction (bike and rider?)

Blueprinting parts, valve adjustment, TB sync, etc.

tuul01 · May 20, 2009

tuningfork said:
are you running the bike naked or with a fairing? at high speeds aerodynamic drag is the biggest obstacle to overcome, pehaps some track bodywork or something to that affect will help you out.

Have you experimented with gearing? There are some simulators out there that can be used to experiment with.

Have you done any experimentation with the PCIII tune? Perhaps the dyno tune does not match up with the track environment (ie temps, load values, airflow at high speeds, etc.) and you are giving up some "real-world" HP.

Maybe try tuning with race fuel and/or ignition mapping?

Did they map each cylinder (power balance test)?

Any mods you can do to the throttle bodies to improve airflow?

Weight reduction (bike and rider?)

Blueprinting parts, valve adjustment, TB sync, etc.

I am currently running it with standard fairing but was thinking about getting a PUIG double bubble screen (more for looks than anything else) but it should help with the wind resistance.

I'm not a big fella, only 77kg or so. I had the bike tuned by a race company so I'm pretty sure that should be ok.

I've thought about the gearing as well but wouldn't want to upset the bike set up... changing it will only mean sacrificing top end speed for acceleration or acceleration for top end.

I'll look in to the throttle bodies thing though, thats the second time I've heard that they may improve power by making air flow easier.

thanks

tuningfork · May 20, 2009

did you go with clip-ons or are you running stock bars? getting yourself lower and narrower will greatly reduce drag. The stock position while comfy puts the body into a parachute-like upright position IMO. I can tell a big difference between this bike and the much lower position of my FZR600 (on the street) which is more similar to an R6 in seating positon.

abacall · May 20, 2009

tuul01 said:
I've thought about the gearing as well but wouldn't want to upset the bike set up... changing it will only mean sacrificing top end speed for acceleration or acceleration for top end.

I've heard the some bikes actually pick up more top speed from shorter gears (not sure about the FZ). In theory, the longer you are in the power band, the better your exit speed should be. Shorter gears should also get your lap times down.

Hollywood416 · May 20, 2009

tuul01 said:
I try to keep the revs quite high when I'm out on track, usually 7K and above but not really above 12K. I think the power band is between 7-10K but I still struggling. For example, I can probably reach around 120mph at a stretch on the short start finish straight at Brands Hatch Circuit (Indy) where as friends with other 600s manage about 145mph.

I know that there's no way I can match this but even another 10 - 15 mph would be great!!

Sounds like to me you are shorting yourself with your shifts as much as anything. Even if you shift at the top of your powerband your dropping the RPM's to low for the next gear and having to build them back up. RUn that thing to redline! Try shifting around 13800 and I bet you'll get more out of it.
When I had mine put on the dyno a little while back I was surprised that it startted making good power about 7-8k but didn't drop much all the way to 14k......i.e. it made better power at 13-14k than it did at 6-7k.
For example my ridin' partner has an '08 CBR600RR and we race quite a bit just playing around and usually I get him off the line as he has a hard time keeping the front end down and we run pretty much dead even all the way to about 135 and he starts pulling on me and there's nothing I can do. If I short shift or shift late though he blows by. That's with both of us -1 and exhaust but I also have a modded airbox and removed cat. His absolute top speed is 149 and mine 147 on the dyno. Now I have another friend with a new R6 and there's nothing either of us can do with him....that thing screems right off the showroom.

As far as the cams I doubt the R6 cams will work the R6S engine is the most similar or the pre 03 R6. There are a few companies out that make cams for those bikes and they should work but I can't verify 100% yet. There are also companies that offer custom grinds from your original...like Web they offer the older R6/R6s cams as well as custom grinds done from your originals. If your going to go that far might as well have some headwork done at the same time. :thumbup:

Speedygonzales · May 20, 2009

I personaly think getting the weight down will have the best effect, other then throwing a lot of money at the engine.
Shorter gearing and better aero will have a good effect as well.

tum226 · May 20, 2009

I would look into getting a 520 chain conversion kit with a -1 front +2 rear sprockets. Lose rotating mass and gain gear should help a lot. Gear gets you to the top speed a lot faster. You aren't even close to the top speed of stock gears so you are waisting all that is left when you start braking.

At the race track gearing is everything.

Hellgate · May 20, 2009

I've seen Ninja 250's beat 600SS bikes on the right track. The engine will NOT hold you back.

The first thing you need are good tires with the correct air pressure for the day. Then you need to remove your kickstand. Next listen to your instructor and do what he says.

Your motor is very potent. With that same set up I was beating most 600SS bikes and 1000 Vee Twins...most.

It is all about being smooth, clean and getting a good drive out of the corner.

Save the cam money for R6 forks, an Ohlins and Pilot Powers.

+ 100 in shorter gearing.

mstewar1 · May 20, 2009

Hellgate said:
...Next listen to your instructor and do what he says.
...

It is all about being smooth, clean and getting a good drive out of the corner.

Save the cam money for R6 forks, an Ohlins and Pilot Powers.

+ a whole bunch on instruction, smooth riding, and suspension. Spot on, IMHO.

What are your turn entrance and exits like? Work with a skilled instructor on cornering so that you hit the apex correctly, every time, and get back on the power as soon as possible.

And as Pete suggests, once you're not worrying about bits hitting the ground -- side/center stands -- and you've got good, dependable, predictable grip, you'll be able to focus on getting the power to the ground with fewer distractions.

Get your suspension set-up correctly/well, even if you don't spend for the nicer bits. There aren't a whole lot of adjustments to be had on the stock stuff but you can do springs and oil in the front, at least. And you can check/set your sag. Then, once that's sorted, when you're on the track, keep the bike nice and quiet under you. Indeed, the word is smooth.

Also, are you shifting with or without the clutch? As another poster suggested, you may be dropping a lot of revs on each shift. Practice a no clutch shifting, done right it's fast and won't hurt the bike.

As for the gearing change, just bear in mind that you'll lose a fair bit of the "over drive" top end (freeway cruising, mileage-friendly) gearing with the -1 drop in the front. And you'll be having to be a little more attentive to the front end (keeping it on the ground).

tuul01 · May 23, 2009

thanks to everyone for their input, I've just purchased a double bubble PUIG screen which should improve looks and aerodynamics... also I'll be looking into changing the chain from a 530 to a 520... i'll prob leave the sprockets alone at this point and re-visit it should my current plan not work out!!

The current plan is though (for all of those who may want to do the same but more so for Yamaha Rider87) the guy I talked to said it is definitely possible to 'de-restrict' the engine. The limiting place for the power is the cam shafts and head gaskets cos they're smaller, which can be replaced by r6 ones (and a little bit of fiddling) to release the power of the engine without changing much else. This is cos the compression ratios are now higher than on stock The throttle bodies can be replaced at the same time as well!!

So that with re-mapping the PCIII should mean that more power from the engine without much else! I've been told he can get them from a breakers yards so I'm gonna go ahead with it for now. I'll let you know how it worls out though!! Thanks again to everyone! :thumbup:

madmanmaigret · May 23, 2009

I don't think a 520 chain is possible without changing the sprockets.....someone may correct me but I think you have to have 520 chain & sprockets or 530 chain and sprockets.

My vote for the straights is leave your gearing alone and put a sneaky pete bottle of nitrous on that bad boy.......that will shut them up! :thumbup:

tuul01 · May 23, 2009

madmanmaigret said:
I don't think a 520 chain is possible without changing the sprockets.....someone may correct me but I think you have to have 520 chain & sprockets or 530 chain and sprockets.

you're totally right about having to shange sprockets as well, what i meant was dong the -1 / +2 mod when doing the change. I think it'll leave the 16/46 stock as it is! :Flash:

btw, if i do the -1/+2 sprocket mod when doing the change, does anyone know how much will be taken off the top end speed? I've had it at an indicated 147mph but it prob wasn't near that! Will it scrub 5mph off top end or more like 10mph?

thanks

DefyInertia · May 23, 2009

+1 on Shorter gearing (unless you're redlining 6th at the end of the straight, you're not too short yet)

Not sure about engine output beyond what you've done.

Probably not much weight to lose on your OR the bike...

Don't underestimate the impact drive has on end-of-the-straight top speed

Good luck and post some track day pics!!!!

:needpics:

tuul01 · May 25, 2009

they're not the best pics but hey!!

yamaha rider87 · May 26, 2009

gotten mine up over 130 with room to spare running -1 +2 520 and a speedohealer that is police radar gun verified....(cuz i just got stopped for speeding, thankfully only going 48 in a 30) you will have plenty of top end, just revving higher, but at the track who gives a rip

Engine Power

tuul01

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Speedy recovery

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Former '04 FZ6 Rider

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