Technique for successive curves

When I was riding yesterday I came through a section of four successive curves that gave me some trouble.

The curves are on a hill with a pretty steep slope, and I came into them going downhill. In that direction they go right, left, right, left, with no space in between, all curve.

I know the road, and was waiting for these turns, so I came into the first one going pretty slow (not sure what speed, wasn't looking down at the gauges). I was applying the throttle control rule #1 from 'Twist of the Wrist II', "Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled open evenly, smoothly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn". This, and the steering rule of making only one steering action per turn, got me through the first three really smoothly and it felt great.

By the time I entered turn four, I felt like I was going way to fast and was going to go wide left, into the other lane. There was a car coming up the road in the other lane too. The car was far enough away that I could have swept into his lane, made the turn and got back into my lane before it got too dangerous, but I didn't want to freak out the other driver so I stood the bike up and emergency braked (no cars behind me). FZ6 brakes worked exceptionally and I rolled through the rest of the turn without incident.

I was bummed because I thought I was going to clean the curve section and was feeling really good until that last turn. What should I have done differently? Lower entry speed to turn one? Less throttle through turns one to three? There was no space between turns to scrub off speed, and since I was going downhill, rolling off the throttle didn't do much to slow me down. I didn't feel like I was applying aggressive throttle, just enough to be continually applying it.

Any advice appreciated, thanks!

more lean angle? maybe less opening of the throttle and more of leaving it cracked open? (so you are not accelerating just keeping weight transfered to the rear). You described it in pretty good detail but I would have to be there to really explain it to you. Maybe some of these other guys can help.

All I do is keep going back and practicing my technique until I feel confident at any speed I am ballsy enough to try.

In my limited experience with downhill twisties (we have awesome ones in Malibu), modify your throttle reaction. When you crack it open and the bike settles, don't keep opening slowly since there are more turns coming up. Keep the throttle as is, keep a constant speed and each turn will feel better and yes, probably slightly faster...

That's what I do. Hold steady, relax and....."FEEL THE RHYTHM, FEEL THE RHYME, GET ON UP...IT'S FZ6 TIME!"

I know you said the turns were tight but there should still be a brief period as you transition from left to right (or vice-versa) where the bike is vertical. You can dump speed during that short moment by (gently) applying the rear brake and resetting your throttle. Additionally, you can buy yourself more time to adjust speed by apexing later in the turn. You might also want to read up on trail braking (there are a few good articles floating around on this forum), but be careful, it's really an advanced technique meant for experienced riders.

shaggystyle said:

You might also want to read up on trail braking (there are a few good articles floating around on this forum), but be careful, it's really an advanced technique meant for experienced riders.

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I was going to recommend this as well. It can be very useful and/or helpful if you come into a turn too hot or just to settle the chassis. Read up on it and practice it on a curve you are comfortable with untill it becomes second nature to you

I know its daft, look where you want the bike to go, and not where you think the problem is.
Target fixation causes the rider to stop putting positive input into steering.
Don't be to down beat, look at the positives.

You were not riding outside you ability as you still had time to access all of your options and stop safely.

This is a good read and is quoted extensively throughout the forum.

Kudos

Nelly

If the turns are all similar, just maintain a constant speed (this will require a small amount of throttle).

I would pay special attention to my lines. Picking good lines is ALWAYS important....for visibility, setting up for the next turn, reducing lean angle at a given speed, and overal flow. I will generally late apex and hug the apex side once I get there which sets me up for the next turn.

Or sometimes the turn will call for a true outside / apex / outside line with an apex near the middle. In this case I will ride it out to the outside (post apex) but keep turning which pulls me back to the opposite side of the road (outside entry of the next turn)...flicking the bike over as I cross the road.

In tight transitions I'm flicking the bike back over into turn 2 at the very moment I'm finishing turn 1. It is very common that you spend zero time with the bike straight up and down during a set of turns. Even with just one small lane...lines make a huge difference in safety.

Here is another thread with some info in it: http://www.600riders.com/forum/new-riders-q/11756-how-much-can-you-use-brake-turn.html

DefyInertia said:

If the turns are all similar, just maintain a constant speed (this will require a small amount of throttle).

I would pay special attention to my lines. Picking good lines is ALWAYS important....for visibility, setting up for the next turn, reducing lean angle at a given speed, and overal flow. I will generally late apex and hug the apex side once I get there which sets me up for the next turn.

Or sometimes the turn will call for a true outside / apex / outside line with an apex near the middle. In this case I will ride it out to the outside (post apex) but keep turning which pulls me back to the opposite side of the road (outside entry of the next turn)...flicking the bike over as I cross the road.

In tight transitions I'm flicking the bike back over into turn 2 at the very moment I'm finishing turn 1. It is very common that you spend zero time with the bike straight up and down during a set of turns. Even with just one small lane...lines make a huge difference in safety.

Here is another thread with some info in it: http://www.600riders.com/forum/new-riders-q/11756-how-much-can-you-use-brake-turn.html

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+1 - As I go transition from corner to corner, like a chicane, I'm on the balls of my feet and my butt just skims the saddle as I counter steer the bike into the next corner. I also like to late apex the first corner as it sets me up on the inside of the exit for the next corner. That gives me more options for the coming corner. If you don't late apex the corner you'll find that you "get behind" on the following corners.

Once you can do this smoothly it is really fun and very rewarding. As you get better and go faster you'll find that when you are in the middle of the transition the bike is almost on one wheel, the rear, and you jam the counter steer into the next corner.

As DI stated your throttle will be neutral, or just a little bit. If you are accelerating you'll find yourself going wide and missing your turn in points.

As Reg Pridmore likes to say, "Go slow to go fast."

Thanks for the replies guys, I'll study the info you all posted and go back for some more practice asap. It sounds (and this was my initial feeling) like I should have used less throttle, as the curves were downhill the neutral throttle would have worked much better.
I think I was fixating on applying the throttle evenly and constantly through the section, which just got me going too fast.
I'm sure I could have picked better lines as well, and set myself up for success in the last turn.
I'll try the late apexing maneuver, I've been feeling like I might be starting my turning action too early on a lot of curves, I think because I'm not confident enough yet to really throw it over hard.
I really felt like I nailed the first three turns, I can't get the feeling out of my mind!

So where were these turns you speak of anyway?

coleman vly road, just outside of occidental.

If your direction change is a little slow this can also pull you out of a good line you may have set yourself up for. I've done this myself, just being a little too relaxed and flopping from side to side. Got out of synch a bit and had to switch over very hard for the middle bend which brought me back into line for the rest.

Of course the good thing about this is it gives you a perfect excuse to go back there and practice...lol.:rockon::rockon::rockon:

Cheers
Mike

More experienced riders can correct me if I am wrong but I beleive one of the main reasons you want to keep accelerating through a turn is for downforce/traction. If the turns are downhill then you will be accelerating anyway so you can use less throttle. Depending on how steep the grade is you can even use the brake as long as the net effect is still acceleration.

Not sure if I am more experienced, but I think you're half right, necro. The downforce comes as weight distribution, and keeps the suspension settled. So being on-throttle exiting the corner keeps slightly more weight on the rear for stability and helps pull the bike upright as your speed increases.

When coasting downhill and off-throttle to keep from coming in too hot, I sometimes drag my rear brake to settle the bike, but any way about it, you'll have more weight on the front tire and have to adjust speed/braking point/line accordingly.

(I should note that this is on my Ninja 500, which I will hopefully sell and replace with a friend's FZ6 in a couple weeks you guys have better suspension than me )

+1 for maint. throttle. Rolling "off" will xfer weight to front end loading your forks and becoming unstable. Don't forget trail braking if needed.

Nelly said:

I know its daft, look where you want the bike to go, and not where you think the problem is.
Target fixation causes the rider to stop putting positive input into steering.
...

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Not daft at all, IMHO.

Defy and Hellgate are spot-on regarding the notion of when and where to apex. I can't improve on that...

I would, however, echo/add to what Nelly chose to emphasize: look where you want to go.

Be attentive to keeping your eyes scanning the line you intend/want to ride. Yes, you want to be aware of oncoming traffic and perhaps that large rock on the shoulder, fair enough. See and acknowledge them, and then get your focus back to your line.

I like to use the lower edge of my helmet visor opening as a guide to keep my eyes level with the horizon. This is particularly helpful when initiating a turn, as I'm able to use my peripheral vision very quickly and simply to check where my eyes are in relation to the horizon. By making this simple check, I find myself making a small correction and then raising my chin to seek out my line.

If we drop the inside eye, we also drop that shoulder. This all tends to bring the focus of our vision to a spot too close to where we are, rather than working to keep our eyes up, looking through the corner and looking to/for the line. Work to be looking up and ahead and learning to trust your eyes and your body's ability to see and acknowledge the line you want and then seek out the line up the road. The vision thing is critical.

You've got the info regarding throttle control, which is great, now learn to see and feel the ride. I sorta doubt that the fastest racers spend any/much time looking at their gauges. I'd bet that they can listen to their bikes doing their thing, while staying focused on where they want to go.

The caveat or caution that I would issue with my vision suggestion, is that you will/may find yourself starting to carry more speed through corners as you allow your eyes to track up the road. While this is ultimately what you want, just be aware that as you do learn to look up that you'll start to ride much more smoothly as you won't be riding to smaller points "just in front of your front wheel", but instead, you'll be riding and flowing towards a point "out there" and, because you'll be riding more smoothly, you'll be going faster...

I hope that that last bit makes sense...

And finally, don't forget The Pace and that the road is not a race track.

^^Great suggestions here. Practice the drills from "Twist" for the wide field of vision. They help tremendously.
The later apex suggestion is key in setting up successive turns.

My step-by-step for successive turns:
1. Keep vision far out.
2. Find your turn-in point and remember it.
3. Flick at that point.
4. Then look at the late apex.
5. Once you're at the apex, find your next turn-in point and memorize it.
6. Repeat step 3, 4, and 5 as many time as necessary.

-Throttle (especially downhill) is neutral, with roll-on at the last turn.
-Especially helpful, pivot steering. It helps me get the faster flick necessary for those quick back-to-back turns.
-Get your body off the bike. Stay on your toes and setup before the turn comes.
-Keep your body farther aft than usual. Since the downhill grade is already putting extra weight on the front wheel, you can offset the throttle application with some weight shifted toward the rear.

Have fun. Start slower and get your speed up after you are comfortable.

With all this discussion of looking ahead, which I agree with, I'll point out the obvious and say it's important to look back and forth (on the street that is) between kinda close and what would otherwise be considered "far ahead". It's important to scan back and forth in the twisties because when you're looking far ahead you can't always see road debri to the extent you need to. Getting my eyes to bouce back and forth smoothly is a challenge for me as I always just want to look WAY ahead like I have the liberty to do at the track.

Funny side note, Valentino claims to look where he is as opposed to really far ahead in turns like most everyone else. I think he just always knows where he is. There is some dumb quote of his that says something along the lines of "why do I care where I will be, for sure I want to know where I am" or something silly like that....he's an oddity for sure.

DefyInertia said:

With all this discussion of looking ahead, which I agree with, I'll point out the obvious and say it's important to look back and forth (on the street that is) between kinda close and what would otherwise be considered "far ahead". It's important to scan back and forth in the twisties because when you're looking far ahead you can't always see road debri to the extent you need to. Getting my eyes to bouce back and forth smoothly is a challenge for me as I always just want to look WAY ahead like I have the liberty to do at the track.

Funny side note, Valentino claims to look where he is as opposed to really far ahead in turns like most everyone else. I think he just always knows where he is. There is some dumb quote of his that says something along the lines of "why do I care where I will be, for sure I want to know where I am" or something silly like that....he's an oddity for sure.

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Agreed, absolutely - that's why I mentioned the oncoming car and the rock on the side of the road. We need to scan. Constantly. As you say, it's sorta obvious, but worth making explicit in this context. The road vs track is another really critical detail. The road can/will present a great many more potentially undesirable things to take into account than a track will. I'm a big fan of stating the obvious...seriously.

My desire to emphasize the need to look up, in this discussion, is predicated on the notion that most of us will not have a great deal of track time. And for better or worse, there's a fair amount of (perhaps) "track-appropriate training", taking place on the streets. With all of the standard disclaimers in-place (don't race on the roads, ride the pace, etc.) if we desire a smoother, more settled/controlled riding experience, then -- to my little brain -- vision takes on pretty important place among the details to work on. I know you're not disputing this and am not responding as if that's the case.

When I'm teaching folks how to ride fast on mountain bikes, I like to use a James Brown phrase: "hit it and quit." See stuff, acknowledge, adjust for it, but get your gaze back on the line. The rock/branch/rut isn't going to move so staring at it isn't going to help you -- except to ensure that you will hit it. Once you spot an obstacle, prepare yourself appropriately with a change in body position or a change in line, whatever it takes, but continue to scan/seek/see your desired line.

Valentino Rossi is an alien. He's a freak. He's the man. There are folks that you just love to watch do their respective sport. I remember watching Gretzky play and will never forget the way he made it just look so freakishly easy. It's the same with Rossi. When he's on, it's like magic.

I just returned from a trip to Moab, where I rode many twisty roads including the one that runs through Colorado National Monument park, going from south to north. In this direction, all left-hand curves had "air" - meaning no shoulder or guardrail and immediate drop-off down the mountain on the right and cliffs on the left. As I would approach a left-hander, all I could see was open sky straight ahead and was unable to look far enough ahead into the left-hand curve because of the steep cliff immediately to my left. It was very unnerving and I was more tentative going through on these left-handers. Right-handers on this road were no problem because I could see well ahead through the curve. I have little opportunity to ride these kinds of roads regularly and really need more practice.