MSF Experienced Rider Course - review

cv_rider

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Yesterday I took the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Experienced Rider Course, which is a 4.5-hour track session in a big parking lot. I was surprised and a little disappointed to find that the entire session is identical to the second range day of the Beginner Riding Course. We went through all those same exercises: low-speed control, U-turns, quick stops, smooth cornering techniques, stopping while cornering, swerving. Perhaps it's getting back to basics is really what makes you a safer rider. I had taken the BRC about a year ago, so none of this seemed new to me. I do think it would probably be a good refresher to take every couple of years, and the instructors did point out a bad habit, which was that I never use all four fingers on the brake. We did a lot of quick stop practice, more than I'd ever done on my own, and I found a lot more stopping power than I'd ever touched before.

About half the class was behemoth Harleys, three BMW tourers, a Triump ST, and dilitated scooter. Those Harleys were like supertankers navigating in a small harbor. During the quick stops, their skidding tires were smoking. During the u-turn practice, they needed about twice the radius I did to turn around. None of them could effectively navigate a weave around traffic cones. They were scraping steel to pavement on even moderate turns. I was impressed with a BMW KT1200R (I think) sport-tourer. Nice looking and the rider was really whipping it around in tight corners -- looked to be a good handling bike even for being pretty large.

It would seem to me to be a good class to take once every five years, as it's only $125 and it was a fun way to spend an afternoon. It would also be a good thing to do if you were coming back to motorcycling after some time off and were rusty.
 
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wrightme43

Thats wierd though.
I can bring my tire to lockup with two fingers, I bet you can too. Wonder why they reccomend 4? Seems like to me that two is better.

I do it weird though. I use my thumb and index for the throttle, middle and ring for the brake and my pinky just hangs out and looks cool.

Glad you had fun. I love parking lot time. Its one of my favorite things to do.
 

Shinn

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I read an article a while back in Cycle Canada and they did extensive testing with braking methods. They actually had proven that the rule of 4 fingers is false, and you can stop quicker with 2 by almost half a second in some people's cases.
 

cv_rider

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Do you recall why you could stop faster with two fingers? As I've been trying to use four fingers, I was thinking that it took more time to get all four fingers around the lever than just two. Maybe that's the reason.
 
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wrightme43

Well most racers and most people use 2 fingers on the front brake. You can lock the front, or do a stoppie, or over rotate a stoppie and crash with two. I dont see how four would be any more effective, and it would be even easier to lock up and crash in a emergency. If you practice consistent with four it would probley be fine though. I think the four finger brake rule is for Harleys and Cruisers with their underpowered brakes.
Ours are insane. I am consistently amazed at how quickly the bike will stop. Stuff will happen where I decide I need to be going a whole lot slower or stop, and the bike is stopped well before I get there.

Once the wieght is transferred just keep squeezing harder and harder and bam its stopped.
 

FZ6er_FSR

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About half the class was behemoth Harleys, three BMW tourers, a Triump ST, and dilitated scooter. Those Harleys were like supertankers navigating in a small harbor. During the quick stops, their skidding tires were smoking. During the u-turn practice, they needed about twice the radius I did to turn around. None of them could effectively navigate a weave around traffic cones. They were scraping steel to pavement on even moderate turns. I was impressed with a BMW KT1200R (I think) sport-tourer. Nice looking and the rider was really whipping it around in tight corners -- looked to be a good handling bike even for being pretty large.

Where I live, we must pass a closed track test as part of the licencing process. You either took a Honda Shadow 750, a Buell (2-Cylinder, I forgot the capacity/model name) or a Suzuki GS500. No matter the type of rider, most took the GS500 during the test as it was the most responsive at low speed cornering.

The BMW R1200RT or 1150RT (depending on the year), is what our local police rides....and yup, don't try to run from them. It seems before an officer is allowed to patrol on a motorcycle, they must perfect their advanced riding skills. Might be why you'll never see a bike cop go down.

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4GDsehURZc[/nomedia]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuaqeTL0kuc"]YouTube - Southwest Police Motorcycle Training & Competition Winner 08[/ame]
 

cv_rider

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Proficient Motorcycling says to count "one thousand one" while progressively increasing braking pressure, and then grab as hard as you want, as the weight is transferred to the front wheel by then. That is good advice. The first time I practiced emergency braking, I grabbed too hard too quick and locked the front wheel for a moment and almost dropped (but was only going 15 mph anyway). But PM has no comments about how many fingers. That's probably bike-specific. Wrightme's comments about 4 fingers being way more than is needed for this bike makes good sense to me. I'm going back to two-fingered.
 

VEGASRIDER

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The BMW R1200RT or 1150RT (depending on the year), is what our local police rides....and yup, don't try to run from them. It seems before an officer is allowed to patrol on a motorcycle, they must perfect their advanced riding skills. Might be why you'll never see a bike cop go down.

YouTube - Police Motorcycle Training

YouTube - Southwest Police Motorcycle Training & Competition Winner 08

One thing about the BMW's going through these courses, they use a dry clutch so by the end of their run, their clutch is pretty much toasted. You can really smell it if you ever have seen them perform. Your FZ6 can outrun these bikes too, as all of their extra weight and gear make them top out about 135mph.

I attended one these police competition here in Las Vegas last year. I was in awe, they had great skill. But a lot of the cops did dump their bikes too. Below is a link of the pics I took from the skill competition.

http://www.600riders.com/forum/members/vegasrider-albums-sw-area-police-motorcycle-competition.html
 
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Hoshiko

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I am pretty new, I got my FZ6 on August and is basically my first bike since the only other "bike" was a 50cc's. This guys are verry talented and I wouldn't want to run away from them.
 

hardway

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Bummer, I was thinking about taking this class but it sounds like more of the same stuff. I can practice turns and stops on my own in parking lots.
cv_rider, you live in the bay area, have you ever thought about taking this class?
CLASS Motorcycle Schools:: The Nations Premier Street Motorcycle School
They offer it at Infineon. I'm thinking of taking the oct. '09 session.
 

blchandl2

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The reason the MSF preaches four fingered braking is because for less experienced riders, it is too easy for them to apply the brakes and the throttle at the same time. The results can be very bad. Also, some people do not have the strength to achieve maximum braking with only two fingers.

There is only so much you can do in a parking lot. Legal issues always play a role in what you want to attempt with the variety of riders who register.

The ERC will not make you the next Valentino Rossi, Having someone *force* you to practice various skills and critique you can make you a better rider. We all get complacent with time.
 

SirIsaac

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Yesterday I took the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Experienced Rider Course, which is a 4.5-hour track session in a big parking lot. I was surprised and a little disappointed to find that the entire session is identical to the second range day of the Beginner Riding Course.
Perhaps the big difference is that you take the ERC on your own bike, instead of one of those (probable) POS 125cc to 250cc bikes. So what you learn should be more applicable to your actual riding.
 

mstewar1

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I've never taken any of the msf courses, so can't comment on that. Though I do appreciate the write-up as I might have signed up for something like that and been disappointed by the somewhat basic material.

Hardway mentioned Reg Pridmore's Class program. I went to that once and would go again. Don't want to thread-jack so I'll just say that I found Class very useful. A nice introduction to riding on a track combined with very good classroom instruction/discussion. Though it's pricier than the msf course, so there's that...
 

SovietRobot

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Thats wierd though.
I can bring my tire to lockup with two fingers, I bet you can too. Wonder why they reccomend 4? Seems like to me that two is better.

I do it weird though. I use my thumb and index for the throttle, middle and ring for the brake and my pinky just hangs out and looks cool.

Glad you had fun. I love parking lot time. Its one of my favorite things to do.

Four gives you better control. The goal isn't to lock up the wheel.
 

cv_rider

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There is something to be said for repeating that basic material on your own bike. It sure sunk in a lot more. It was hard to act upon the coaches advice when I took the BRC and I was brand new to motorcyling. My head was spinning with trying to upshift, which was the clutch, which was the brake. Couldn't hardly take in any advice. This time around, I didn't have to think about how to shift, so I was able to focus on the instructor's comments more.

I can imagine that liability-wise, it would be hard to make the class much more aggressive - even with the modest exercises, one HD rider did spill in a corner (minor scrapage on the engine guard, seemed to bruise his shin a bit - and not proper ATGATT of course). Maybe track schools like that CLASS thing are the next step. I'm not as much looking at how to improve my racing skills as how to be safer on the street - maybe that would still be useful. I think a useful component to it would have been some classroom time, perhaps dissecting and discussing different accident scenarios and street strategies. Although I get a lot of that from this site without needing to pay for it!
 

blchandl2

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We get enough people dropping their bikes in the ERC as it is. If we were to try to teach more aggressive riding it would be a disaster. I hear so many people say "I don't want to use my bike because I will probably drop it". That should be telling them something.

When you look at the entire motorcycling population in the US, the average skill level is pretty low with regards to motorcycle control and safety. We are an "entitlement" nation. If someone has the money, or credit to buy a bike, that is all it takes.

DISCLAIMER: I do not work for the MSF, I am a certified instructor.
 

Botch

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Do you recall why you could stop faster with two fingers? As I've been trying to use four fingers, I was thinking that it took more time to get all four fingers around the lever than just two. Maybe that's the reason.
Possibly because many folks ride with the two fingers around the brake handle all the time, or at least in traffic; they don't have to take the time to wrap their fingers around, they're already there.
 

mstewar1

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...Maybe track schools like that CLASS thing are the next step. I'm not as much looking at how to improve my racing skills as how to be safer on the street - maybe that would still be useful. I think a useful component to it would have been some classroom time, perhaps dissecting and discussing different accident scenarios and street strategies. Although I get a lot of that from this site without needing to pay for it!

The best thing (to me) about Class was that it was not just about track riding. I certainly wasn't there to learn about riding on a track or becoming a racer. For me, it was about learning to be a better, smoother rider. I wanted to increase my confidence as a rider.

They just do the teaching in the relatively controlled environment of a track. There's a lot of discussion about road riding scenarios. There's reinforcement of the notion that the road is not a track. You'll practice emergency stops. And, yeah, you'll get a chance to go as fast as you care to go on a track. Woot! What's not to like..?

I sound like a total pimp for Pridmore's school, but I got a lot out of it. It really does sound like a natural next step from what you've described here. :thumbup:
 

mstewar1

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Possibly because many folks ride with the two fingers around the brake handle all the time, or at least in traffic; they don't have to take the time to wrap their fingers around, they're already there.

I'm not sure where I got it/when I started doing it, but I ride with two fingers on the brake, too. It may be because I ride like that on my dh/off-road bikes or I may have gotten it from Class.

Having my fingers on the lever like that saved my behind once and that's enough for me to continue doing it. YMMV

I recall that someone on the forum once mentioned that they were told by their MSF instructor that riding with two fingers on the brake was a no-no. I wouldn't contradict something that someone was taught by an experienced instructor, no matter what I think about the notion.

I guess, as has been mentioned in this thread, perhaps it's about new riders freaking out and twisting the throttle when they mean to apply the brake. So they purposely seek to separate the activities by making the rider grip the grip for throttle and then reach for the brake when necessary...
 
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